Posts by jonathan dough

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

Jona,

And the Bible states that all things were created by, for and through the Word, the second person of the Trinity. And since the Word was before all things, he could not logically be a "thing" created.

Well I think your stretching it a little there. Your logic is a little short sighted and based on semantics.

For example: Why couldn't Jesus be the very first thing god created and then god gets tired and says:"Jesus, I'm tired, if you want to make something go ahead I give you the power"?

-----------------------------------------------

ME: Because the proof is overwhelming that the Word was not created, that's why. The Word is eternal. It's not semantics, but sound scriptural teaching that stretches back 2,000 years. The JWs' NWT itself concedes that the Prince of Peace is eternal at Isaiah 9:6. Col. 1:16, 17 is not a play on words but sound doctrine. The Word is before all things. Add the many other proofs together and there is no other acceptible answer. The Word cannot be God if He was created.

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

PS, no offense taken, but sometimes I don't undertand the point of the scripture you quote without some introductory explanation of what it is supposed to support.

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

Isaiah is saying what Jesus will be called and you are calling him the father but that does'nt make it true. There are many names that Jesus is called not all are true. Isaiah prophesised about what he would be called and the prophcey is true but the names may or may not be.

Don't be silly. So he is not called Prince of Peace? Mighty God? Even the JWs in their literature concede that his name will be called Eternal Father. Now you're just making this up because you broke through the ice and are plunging down fast in to the frigid cold waters of self-deception. To think for one minute that Isaiah 9:6 means that the child is just a man and nothing more is patently ridiculous. Don't forget also that the JWs teach, falsly, that there is only one who should be called Father, God, and it for this reason that the Catholics are wrong in calling their priests Father. Go ahead, look it up. Christ, God the Son, is eternal, and he is the Father in the sense of being the triune God, not the first person of the Trinity. He is not a created angel.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#27

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

You should worship the Creator not a creation.

And the Bible states that all things were created by, for and through the Word, the second person of the Trinity. And since the Word was before all things, he could not logically be a "thing" created.

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

Why would God pray to himself? Jesus told us (and did himself) to pray for our Father's name to be sanctified and for our Father's will to be done on earth as in heaven...;not for his own will but the Father's will.

It amazes me that you call yourself a minister of God, a Bible expert and an expert on what Christendom teaches and still believe that Christianity teaches that Jesus was praying to himself. He wasn't. It was the creature, Jesus, who was not the Almighty, who was praying to his superior. Why do you put words in our mouths and perpetuate the deception.

First, by virtue of the hypostatic union, Jesus is a divine person with a human nature, God and man, and the man, Jesus, did have his own free will:

Just as there are two complete and perfect natures in Christ, one divine, the other human, there are two wills in Christ, one divine, the other human. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 947)

Trinitarianism teaches that Jesus was not only true God, but true man. “[I]n his body Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity.”

The Son of God … worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he was truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin. (Catechism of the Catholic Church [New York, Image-Doubleday, 1994], 132) (Catholic Catechism)
Though not infinite, and therefore not omnipotent, because His humanity is finite, [His theandric power] extends to effects that are beyond purely human or created causality. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 943)

It is important that you understand this.

Secondly, and more important, the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that “The humanity of Christ is a creature, it is not God” (ibid., 922).

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#6

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

You should worship the Creator not a creation.

Christianity does not teach that the creature Jesus, who is not the Almighty triune God, should be worshipped. This is very basic stuff.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#3

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

Father Greater than Son - John14:28, Son going back to his Father; they are in total unity but not equal.

You don't understand Christianity's hypostatic union, and that the creature is not considered the Almighty. Jesus was God-man, so the creature was subordinate and could claim God was greater, but not God the Son, the God of the God-man hypostatic union, as explained here: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#1

Plus God is immortal and has to be alive to hear our and Jesus's prayers; Jesus died for three days.

Again, the hypostatic union. God did not die, the God of the God-man did not die, .... basic dictionary stuff.

Plus if the Son was the Father the Son; the Son would know the day and hour of his own return. But only the Father knows the day and hour. - Mat.24:36, Mark13:32, Acts1:7

You lack a basic understanding of the topic because the JWs have mislead you into believing that Christianity teaches something that it does not.

“[One] could say that Christ knew the Last Day in His vision knowledge, not in His infused knowledge” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 939) (emphasis added).

The Jehovah's Witnesses contend further that even if, “as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?” (Reasoning, 409). The answer is that the Holy Spirit did know because He is one of the Hypostases or Persons of the Holy Trinity. Remember, usually “Father is not a title for the first person of the Trinity but a synonym for God” (Encyclopedia of Religion, 54). God is by nature triune and one of those Persons is the Holy Spirit. Therefore, when Jesus stated that only the Father knows exactly when the Last Day shall be, his reference to the Father, the triune God, by definition included the Person of the Holy Spirit.More on this topic can be found here: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-3.html#14

You can twist the scriptures all day to fit your lies.

You're the one twisting scripture and deceiving the public as to what Christianity teaches.

If you worship the Son(Jesus) as the Father(Yahweh/Jehovah) then you break the first and biggest commandment Jesus taught us -- Mark12:29, Mat.4:10 ( and if your bible says LORD it means the Father's name = Jehovah in English, Yahweh in Hebrew. LORD = God, Father. Lord/lord means king, shepard, Son of God, Jesus. Worshiping anything other that the Father as the Father is not good for your spiritual development and NOT taught by Christ.

Wrong again. The "Father" generally refers to God in the NT, the triune God, which includes God the Son, so worshipping Jesus as God the Son violates no commandments. No one in the NT worshipped the creature Jesus who/is was not the Almighty.

I hope this helps you understand the differance between the Son and the Father.

I mean this with no malice aforethought, but you have been brainwashed to believe many lies. I'll say it again: hypostatic union.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#5

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

As a JW i was never able to get my head around Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

----------------------------

yes. This is devastating to the JWs' theories.

By their own admission it goes directly to the issue of Christ's eternal nature.

In addition to Jesus Christ’s omnipotence, he is and always has been eternal, a Scriptural truth strongly denied by the Jehovah's Witnesses who teach, incorrectly, that Jesus is a created being granted immortality only after his resurrection. But even Isaiah 9:6 in the Jehovah's Witnesses’ New World Translation disproves that theory where Christ is referred to as “Eternal Father.”

For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be on his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

The preexistent Christ’s eternal nature is not the result of a forward-looking grant of immortality as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach, but is a condition that has always been because “He is before all things” (Colossians 1:17), and he created all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). There are only two options: He was created or He is eternal, but since He was before all things and created all things, He must be eternal.

Continued Here: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#27

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

I AM THAT I AM without a doubt represents the majority view, the traditional common rendering, and hayah in this context means “to exist,” “to be.” “The verb makes a strong statement about the being or presence of a person or thing” (Strong and Vine’s, 68 (1a)). “Ex 3:14 is more than a simple statement of identity: “I am that I am”… is a declaration of divine control of all things (cf Hos 1:9) (ibid., 68). Remember, Jesus said “All power and authority has been given to me” (Matthew 28:18).

The precise meaning of the divine name Yahweh, which stems from hayah, is likewise much debated, (ibid., 109). Strong and Vine’s defines Yhovah (Yahweh) as “(the) self-Existent or Eternal,” and illustrates how God explained the meaning of “I AM WHO I AM.”

here is another snippet that got cut off by the new shrinkage policy.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html#36

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

The I AM argument continued, Part II

The overall context of Jesus’ claim to be the I AM was His “identity.” In verses 25 and 53 the Jews ask Jesus outright “Who are you,” and “Whom do you make yourself?” And at verse 48 they accuse him of being a Samaritan. John 8:12-59 chronicles a heated debate between Jesus, the Pharisees and other Jews, the central issue being the true identity of Christ, but it should be noted that identity involves more than a name or label. Personal characteristics such as origin, destination, occupation or purpose, associations and age, among other things, combine to identify who a person is, and it was these kinds of attributes the Pharisees and other Jews were prying into and how Jesus responded.

Then the Jews answered and said to Him, Do we not say well that you are a Samaritan, and have a demon? Jesus answered, I do not have a demon, but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. “But I do not seek my glory; there is One who seeks and judges. Truly, truly, I say to you, If anyone keeps my word, he will never ever see death.
Then the Jews said to Him, Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets, and you say, If anyone keeps My word, he will never ever taste of death. Are you greater than our father Abraham who died? And the prophets died! Whom do you make yourself? Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies me, whom you say is your God. And you have not known Him; but I know Him, and if I say I do not know Him, I shall be like you, a liar. But I know Him, and I keep His word. Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced. Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have you seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM. Then they took up stones that they might throw them on Him. But Jesus was hidden, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (John 8:48-59. Green’s Literal Translation)

Previously at verse 19 Jesus stated that the Jews did not know Him. At verse 12 he identifies himself metaphorically as “the Light of the world.” He tried to explain his origin, having come from heaven above to where he was returning (verse 23) and he stated as one of his purposes conveying to the world what he had heard from the Father (verse 26). He also alluded to his age, that he was preexistent (verse 56). It seems evident, then, that the controversy centered around who Jesus was, and it was in response to that series of inquires that he told them that he was the I AM, understood by the Jews as Yahweh’s own self-designation (NAB notes 8, 24-28).

The Jehovah's Witnesses take an extremely narrow view and seem to think that Jesus was only referring to his preexistence at John 8:58, and not his identity, going so far as to change the Bible to read “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been” (NWT). But the problem there, of course, is that the Bible doesn’t say that or come remotely close. Jesus said “I AM,” nothing more (Green‘